The Magic of Vajrayana with Ken McLeod Transcript

Transcription of a Deconstructing Your self podcast episode, you’ll be able to take heed to right here.

Michael Taft: Welcome to Deconstructing Your self, the podcast for meta-modern mutants interested by meditation, neuroscience, hardcore dharma, shards of earth, predictive processing, tantra, nonduality, awakening, and far more. My title is Michael Taft, your host on the podcast, and on this episode, I’m talking as soon as once more with Ken McLeod. Ken McLeod started his research and observe of Buddhism in 1970 underneath the eminent Tibetan grasp Kalu Rinpoche. After finishing two three-year retreats, he was appointed as resident instructor for Kalu Rinpoche’s Middle in Los Angeles, the place he developed modern approaches to instructing and translation. After his instructor’s loss of life in 1989, Ken established Unfettered Thoughts, a spot for these whose path lies exterior established establishments. His many printed works embody Wake Up To Your Life, A Trackless Path, and his model new e-book entitled The Magic of Vajrayana. And now I provide the episode of Deconstructing Your self that I name “The Magic of Vajrayana with Ken McLeod.”

Michael Taft: Hey Ken, welcome again as soon as once more, to the Deconstructing Your self podcast,

Ken McLeod: A delight to be again and speaking with you once more, Michael. 

MT: Sure, it’s at all times a pleasure. You’re probably the most in style company, and also you’ve been on right here a bunch of instances. And I’m actually excited as a result of as we predicted within the final podcast, you now have a brand new e-book out referred to as The Magic of Vajrayana. 

KM: Sure, it lastly has seen the sunshine of day. 

MT: And at the moment it’s accessible as a hardcover. Are you going to deliver it out in different codecs? 

KM: Sure, we’ve at all times deliberate to deliver it out in paperback, we may even do an eBook or digital model. And also you inspired me to additionally give you an audio model. So I’m giving severe thought to that.

MT: Boy, I’d be actually excited if the audio model existed as nicely. That’d be great. Particularly when you had been studying it.

KM: I’ll do the audio model. Positively. 

MT: Good. 

KM: I’m going to have a dialog with anyone on Monday about that. 

MT: Nice. That’s actually, actually excellent news. 

KM: Now, this e-book, as we talked about final time, was not an easy e-book to put in writing. And I believe it’s fairly uncommon. I haven’t seen anything on the market that’s actually that related. 

MT: How would you summarize or simply briefly describe this textual content and what’s uncommon about it? 

KM: Nicely, I’m not in an excellent place to touch upon what’s uncommon about it, as a result of I haven’t learn a number of English language books on Vajrayana. However the impression that I get is most of them are giving a considerably technical account of the meditations. And generally, like Lama Govinda’s e-book ages and ages in the past, kind of elaborate descriptions of the deities, and the historical past of the deities, and so forth. This e-book, as actually the case with all of my books, is targeted on the observe of Vajrayana. And that’s what I attempted to emphasise within the books that I write. So I believe what makes this uncommon, or could make this uncommon, is that it’s undoubtedly essentially the most private e-book that I’ve written–in that I exploit cases from my very own life and expertise with Vajrayana for example a number of the observe factors. 

After which I’m additionally providing, and I’ve to be very cautious how I phrase this: when Buddhism has been in a tradition for a very long time, that tradition kinds the connection with Buddhism and the observe of Buddhism in a means that works in that tradition, however when it strikes to a different tradition, reminiscent of Buddhism coming to the West, then the brand new tradition has to undergo the identical course of. And sometimes, it’s a course of that takes at the very least a long time, if not centuries. And over the a long time that I’ve practiced Vajrayana, I’ve discovered methods to work with it, most of which I got here from wanting deeper into the historical past and a number of the Indian origins of Vajrayana. The emphases are totally different from what one would possibly get from most of the Tibetan lecturers. And I’m presenting this as a type of contribution to how folks raised in a Western context would possibly method this materials. 

MT: In order that’s actually fascinating. What components do you’re feeling are totally different within the Indian understanding of Vajrayana versus the Tibetan?

KM: The impression that I’ve is that Indian Vajrayana was a lot much less institutionalized.

That’s definitely the impression one will get from studying say in regards to the Eighty-four Mahasiddhas. 

MT: Yeah, they’re type of wild loopy yogis, out within the wilderness, or avenue folks or no matter. 

KM: Nicely, it’s on the margins of society. 

MT: Sure. 

KM: , a few of them are ordained monks, a few of them are ladies, some arms producers like Saraha the arrowsmith, Tilopa powdered sesame seeds for a dwelling, which is fairly low caste. However that is how they approached and practiced Vajrayana. That’s what the Eighty-four Mahasiddhas report. And I believe Vajrayana developed as a distinction to the extremely institutional types of Buddhism in India that happened within the monasteries, and in addition within the college monasteries like Nalanda. And we’ve the well-known story of Naropa, for example, who has reached the head of the institutional framework; he was one of many gatekeepers at Nalanda. And a gatekeeper was a particularly excessive place. As a result of in these days, one other non secular determine may come and problem you to debate. And if you’re not in a position to defeat him, then your entire monastery needed to convert to his means of practising, his custom.

MT: Lots of pores and skin within the sport.

KM: The stakes had been very, very excessive. And so solely the very, best possible folks had been the gatekeepers. And Naropa got here to the conclusion that–it was a visionary expertise he had–you realize, that he didn’t actually know what the Dharma was about, and so he left and went to review with this digital outcast, Tilopa. And thru him, got here to wakening. And most of the teachings and practices that I did really got here from Naropa himself. 

MT: And so within the non-institutionalized model of Vajrayana–what is that this non-institutional model of it? What’s totally different about it? Is it simply extra devotional or simply looser? Or what do you see as the guts of that?

KM: You’re extra prone to have an in depth relationship along with your instructor, a private relationship since you’d be a part of a small group. And you’ll solely go and see your instructor if you actually had one thing to speak about. However it might be a really intimate dialog, and also you didn’t have type of a complete monastic–or the obligations both of a complete monastic establishment. These lecturers can be themselves renunciates and wandering across the nation as sadhus do immediately in India. And this can be a little hypothesis on my half. However that’s my guess, is that you simply’d be a part of a small coterie of devoted disciples you would possibly meet collectively periodically for feasts and so forth. Your observe was your individual duty. I wouldn’t describe it as looser; it was most likely simply as demanding, if no more demanding in what was anticipated of you since you’d be accountable for sustaining your being on this planet, instructor could or could not have helped that, however you didn’t have a monastery when which ship or something like that. He additionally didn’t have the help of, say, a monastic library, texts had been uncommon, you needed to hear very, very fastidiously to your instructor, notably when he was studying the textual content, as a result of that may be the one time you really heard all the pieces about that observe. , individuals who had phonographic recollections had a particular benefit.

MT: Yeah. So I undoubtedly agree, having learn the e-book now a pair instances, that this characterization of it being far more private is completely right. I imply, sure, you do have a complete system in there or an entire textual content for doing deity observe with White Tara. However there’s additionally a lot about your individual understanding, about what it’s love to do the observe, the way it feels, the way it can have an effect on you–issues that I’ve simply by no means seen in different texts. And it’s not solely actually useful, however it’s touching, you realize; you actually get a way of your individual deep, long-term work with this. Clearly, this was a really significant and vital e-book for you and one thing that was stewing for many years that simply is so obvious within the textual content. And so I’m curious, what do you’re feeling is the principle throughline or primary understanding you need folks to get from this textual content? 

KM: That’s an excellent query, Michael. I believe it’s what I write in a few locations within the e-book, Buddha’s final phrases–I can’t keep in mind what the Sanskrit was, however English, it’s typically translated, “I’ve proven you the best way, work out your individual freedom.” Or one thing alongside these traces. One other context I got here throughout is the distinction between the particular and the indefinite article in English. Lots of languages don’t have any articles. Tibetan doesn’t actually have any articles. And there’s an enormous distinction between translating one thing as the best way and a means.

So I favor to view Buddha’s final phrases as I’ve proven you a means. And I believe this is essential as a result of if we take it as the best way then we really feel that we’ve to do what Buddha did. 

MT: It narrows it tremendously. 

KM: That’s what I really feel. Sure. And I actually don’t need folks making an attempt to observe what I did. As a result of it was simply so painful, I wouldn’t need them to. My hope is that by describing–and I received’t even say it was my means–the best way I ended up taking or the best way that fashioned as I put one foot in entrance of the opposite, that they’ll discover a means, a means to place one foot in entrance of the opposite additionally. However it received’t be my means. It received’t be anyone else’s means. It’ll be the best way that kinds as they make their efforts in observe. And that truly is the want for my e-book: that by means of the dialogue of every of the three primary sections–guru observe, deity observe, and protector observe–and learn how to put all of them collectively, that they’ve some concepts: Oh, oh, my God, I may do that, I may do that. And it helps them discover a means ahead. 

MT: That’s a lovely want. And it undoubtedly comes by means of within the textual content, which, as you simply talked about, you’ve organized into these sorts of three primary sections: guru, deity, and protector. And that stands out to me, that three-part construction. Why did you select that as the principle means of organizing this? 

KM: Nicely, once I first took refuge with Kalu Rinpoche, the refuge prayer that he gave to folks was a six-part refuge: take refuge within the guru, take refuge within the deities, take refuge within the Buddha, after which the Dharma, after which the Sangha, after which the Protectors. That was how that specific refuge prayer was set out. So you could have this interweaving of Vajrayana and Sutrayana actually—which is the opposite department of Mahayana—principally, proper from the start. And in all traditions of Buddhism, we’ve refuge within the Three Jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. And in Vajrayana, these tackle a unique type as guru, deity, and protector, principally. And all of those refuges have exterior and inner interpretations. In Vajrayana, the three pillars–the guru, deity, and protector–are known as the three routes or the three sources; I favor that translated as supply, although the time period in Tibetan is actually root. And the supply of vitality, or inspiration, or blessing is the guru, and the supply of energy, and talent, and skill is the deity. And the supply of the place you study and are in a position to act on this planet is what you develop by means of a protector observe, or the best way that you simply’re in a position to work together with your individual reactive patterns, for that matter. These three sources are elementary to all the traditions of Vajrayana in Tibetan Buddhism. In order that was the logical framework to make use of for this e-book. As I mentioned, I’m not very authentic.

MT: It appears to me that if we’re speaking about gurus, undoubtedly; but additionally, I typically discover one thing related with deities and protectors is these usually are not in any means straightforward or snug issues to work with for the typical Westerner, even the typical Westerner who’s interested in Vajrayana. Looks like these will be actually difficult ideas. Would you agree?

KM: Sure and no. I keep in mind a really transient dialog I had about translation with Trungpa Rinpoche. I requested him in regards to the translation of technical phrases. And possibly essentially the most notorious within the Tibetan context are dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya. And Trungpa Rinpoche’s reply is, “We don’t wish to make it too straightforward, will we?”

I believe lots of people within the West, as a result of their relationship with faith has been so restricted in lots of respects, don’t actually perceive what a religious path entails. And so they can entail loads. And I’ve a good friend who’s very succesful in her personal proper, and she or he’s not in the slightest degree interested by instructing anyone who isn’t ready to commit their life to it. And by commit life, doesn’t imply to say they provide up all the pieces else, however it turns into the middle of their life. I believe this is essential. Individuals could not begin there. Fairly undoubtedly, I do know many individuals have began performing some fundamental mindfulness or meditating as a result of it helps them ultimately of their lives.

However a sure proportion of these folks discover that as their expertise in meditation modifications, then extra prospects and extra questions come up. And so they turn into interested by these and about at that time, they did start to embark on what may be referred to as a religious path. It’s not about serving to them of their lives; it’s turn into one thing that’s significant in and of its personal proper. And I believe that for a lot of of those folks–perhaps all of them, I don’t know–it’s as a result of they start to the touch one thing that can not be put into phrases. And there’s a thriller there and a depth there which brings a brand new dimension to their life. And that’s why it turns into so intensely significant.

MT: Now, you and I’ve had earlier conversations about some features of those matters. Let’s simply begin out with the guru. This may be the one which’s essentially the most charged actually, for most individuals since we regularly hear a lot about damaging experiences with gurus. And the time period is sort of, at this level, a pejorative solely in English. How would you need somebody to know this guru relationship, which is one thing that I believe each of us have had, the expertise will be tremendously great. 

KM: Nicely, within the e-book itself, I exploit the phrase instructor somewhat than guru, partially for the explanations that you simply simply talked about. And one of many issues that I’ve observed is that when folks use the phrase guru, they put a lot weight on it; they’re searching for an individual who can fulfill a really big selection of needs, and even wants, in them. And don’t actually have a good suggestion of the way you relate to an individual who, to a larger or lesser extent, embodies the religious qualities to which you your self aspire or shows them ultimately. Nicely, notably in our tradition immediately, we’re dismayed when an artist that we love we study has a lower than impeccable habits. However that doesn’t essentially make him any much less of an incredible artist. And I do know this can be a sensitive matter in immediately’s world. However there’s one thing related in religious observe, that we’re all human beings in the long run. And a few folks develop actually deep understandings and capabilities in sure dimensions, and by necessity, different features of life might not be as developed. And so I believe lots of people method a religious instructor as searching for an ideal particular person. And that’s a little bit of an issue, as I’m certain you’ll be able to think about. In Wake Up To Your Life, which is the primary e-book that I wrote, the standard that you simply’re searching for in a instructor is somebody who speaks to you, even if you’re fully loopy, somebody you’ll really take heed to if you’re fully loopy. Now, that’s fairly vital. 

When you go a bit additional, anytime that we enter a self-discipline of any type, you realize, whether or not it’s soccer, or violin, or medication, or regulation, or welding, or something, we search for somebody who can divulge to us what is feasible. And so they could present this by their very own instance, or they might present it to us in different methods, by pointing it out to us in different folks or one thing like that. However they’re in a position to present us new prospects. Issues that we hadn’t considered, hadn’t even imagined. And we additionally want somebody who can educate us learn how to construct the talents and the capabilities that we’re going to want in religious observe in the identical means that, you realize, when you’re studying learn how to play soccer, somebody wants to show you learn how to throw or learn how to block or learn how to construct energy in your physique, or learn how to root your self within the floor, as in martial arts, and so forth. However there are a number of abilities that one has to develop. After which we additionally want somebody who can level out when our personal stuff is getting in the best way. And people are the three primary issues that we glance to a instructor for, whatever the self-discipline. However it’s uncommon, really, that we discover all of these in a single particular person. We could discover them in three totally different folks. 

One instructor I do know in England had one five-minute assembly with a instructor that he desperately needed to speak with. He was by no means in a position to say a phrase, given the formality of how issues labored in Tibetan tradition. And so he returned to his room, you realize, fully shattered as a result of he hadn’t been in a position to ask any of the questions that he needed to. However when he sat right down to meditate, he discovered that his meditation had modified fully, and he regarded this instructor, with whom he by no means exchanged a phrase, as one among his main lecturers as a result of he confirmed him what’s attainable in his personal means.

Different persons are like, Oh, you do that as an alternative of that, and Oh, I can really do this, you realize, your studying abilities. I’ve suggested many, many individuals that; cease making an attempt to know one thing like Mahamudra and Dzogchen, construct your capability in consideration. When you could have sufficient consideration, you’ll have the ability to understand it instantly, and it’s not a case of understanding it along with your mind, so overlook about that. Individuals within the West discover that very, very exhausting as a result of they wish to perceive it intellectually, however it really will get in the best way a number of the time. 

And I do know many practitioners who’ve by no means had anyone level out the place they’re getting in their very own means. That’s additionally an issue. So we want all three varieties of individuals. We could discover them in a single particular person, and I do know individuals who have; we could discover them in three totally different folks. On this means, I’ve tried to take a number of the magic or the thriller out of the time period guru and simply put it down in very sensible phrases, if that is smart to you. 

MT: Yeah, completely. And it definitely matches my expertise. The query that comes up there’s, What about lifeless folks? What about gurus who’re not alive? Clearly, it’s going to be exhausting for them to level out your flaws or no matter. However do you suppose there’s something to be gained by taking a non-living instructor as your guru? 

KM: Very undoubtedly, I’d say really, not solely somebody who’s not alive however even a legendary determine can type these issues. And for some folks, such a determine does reveal prospects. For different folks, such a determine could assist them develop energy, capabilities and abilities, I imply as a result of they’re simply impressed by what this particular person can do. And for different folks, yeah, after they consider this particular person, then they see their very own faults very clearly. So I believe {that a} non-living particular person can do all three features, probably. However there’s a hazard there, in that you could be by no means go away your individual world of expertise. When you embark on that, it’s useful to have another person that you simply even have to speak to, as a result of that requires you to place your understanding, or your skills, or your persona out into the world. And also you get suggestions from the opposite particular person in very, very clear phrases. Generally, it might not be what you need. I may discuss this for a very long time. 

And there’s a statue in the midst of America within the Nelson Atkins Museum in Kansas Metropolis, Missouri. It’s a statue of Avalokitesvara, Kuan Yin, I suppose, within the Chinese language custom, carved from a single tree trunk. And I believe it is among the most extraordinary items of artwork on this planet, and no person is aware of that it’s in the midst of America. I’ve seen many, many photos of it. However I used to be driving throughout the nation, and I went to see it. And I spent two hours there in tears more often than not, as a result of that is the posture of royal ease. And right here you’re feeling the the Aristocracy of bodhicitta, and the noblesse oblige that arises in that the Aristocracy, and the richness and energy it’s completely peaceable. I discovered it tremendously shifting. And I’m going to go and spend extra time with that earlier than I die. Very a lot on my listing as soon as I get just a few issues executed right here. As a result of I simply suppose it’s wonderful. So this statue and Kuan Yin Avalokitesvara, what Avalokitesvara represents, speaks to me very, very powerfully, as that is one type that the compassion can absorb an individual. And I sit in entrance of that determine, and I’ve no phrases in anyway however I can really feel the radiant presence of compassion. So it’s a bit long-winded reply, however you get the thought, Michael?

MT: I do. And it leads on to the second portion of the e-book about deities, since we may place Avalokitesvara in that class. And I believe maybe the least fascinating query is the ontological standing of them. And but, that’s what everybody focuses on in a method, clearly, perhaps that’s vital, however it doesn’t appear to me to matter a lot in observe. That’s simply the mental thoughts making an attempt to get in the best way. However I’m curious. You’ve executed, in fact, a long time of observe with deities and taught so many individuals to try this observe as nicely. What do you suppose is the principle profit there, and in addition some methods folks can circumvent a number of the extra typical Western cultural points that come up?

KM: I’m going to be a bit of blunt in my response. I’m going to begin with the second half. And right here I’m talking from my very own expertise as a lot as I’m talking about anyone else. 

MT: Sure. 

KM: I believe, simply to be protected, I’ll put it within the first particular person. I used to be raised in a Protestant custom in Canada. And I approached Tibetan Buddhism from that perspective. Within the West, by and huge, we’ve a really restricted concept of what a faith is, and our template is principally the Protestant understanding of what a faith is. And I discover it very embarrassing to say that I didn’t actually begin breaking out of that very restricted vary of pondering till 30 years after I began practising. 

I imply, that is actually fairly embarrassing, however what the hell? And faith is a lot greater that I believe it’s a disgrace, in lots of respects, that many individuals’s conception is proscribed to that framework.

Now I observe within the Tibetan custom, and as you mentioned, simply now, if you’re engaged in these practices, the ontological standing turns into much less vital. And a part of the rationale there are a few issues in right here which can be philosophical however they might be useful to some people who find themselves listening to this. The primary off is that the ontological standing of the deities, and the protectors and so forth, aren’t in query; everyone acknowledges they exist. That’s, I had this image of Avalokitesvara, and there’s a statue of Avalokitesvara, so Avalokitesvara exists. Now, one could say he exists as a legendary determine, not a cloth being. However there’s no query about whether or not he exists or not. It’s what class of existence will we put them in? You observe? 

MT: Sure. 

KM: And in order you observe, or as I practiced, I’m going to maintain this within the first particular person, I spotted that my classes of existence needed to broaden a bit of bit as a result of issues would occur, which didn’t match into any of them. And this leads me to what I used to be mentioning earlier: that, principally, I used to be approaching religious observe, in one other tradition, from a really slim way of thinking, very narrow-minded. That’s the embarrassing half. And one of many first understandings that helped me get away of this–which might be someday once I was within the three-year retreat–I got here to know that Buddhism isn’t actually involved with ontology in any respect.

MT: Precisely. 

KM: It’s involved with how we expertise issues, it’s far more epistemological. It’s not involved with how issues exist or are, or what being is. That’s type of a given. And what one’s exploring and making an attempt to return to is a unique means of experiencing issues. 

When Rinpoche was requested,  Does Chenrézig exist? Sure. Or Avalokitesvara; Chenrézig is the Tibetan; he’d say, “Sure, folks have visions of him; folks have seen him of their goals. Yeah, in fact, he exists.” Individuals would discover that very unsatisfactory. However from my instructor’s perspective, and from Jap Buddhism normally, the truth that you expertise one thing nixes the ontological query in any respect. And the entire thing is about the way you expertise life, what you’re experiencing, not whether or not it’s actual. And in the long run, the concept all the pieces has to have a cloth existence is one other occasion of the narrowness with which a materialistic mindset limits us after we come to method religious observe. So the query really comes from what I believe is a really slim, materialistic, ontologically primarily based mindset that most individuals usually are not conscious of. 

MT: Sure. And so what’s the opposite half?

KM: As I practiced this, I got here to understand I used to be practising magic. And there are Western traditions of magic; a number of them have been misplaced, and there are people who find themselves making an attempt to revive them or reform them; I’m pondering of chaos magic, for example. And there’s some great things there. However it lacks the lengthy and steeped custom that one advantages from in one thing like Tibetan Buddhism. 

, there we had been practising magic, and there’s no means round it. And so we had been invoking deities. Not solely had been we invoking deities, we had been evoking deities. That’s, we had been in search of to create the qualities of being the deity in ourselves. Nicely, that is how a magician or a sorcerer does it, and it’s a very, very totally different type of observe. 

I needed to snort as a result of once I was in LA, I acquired to know a Sri Lankan instructor who’s a really good man, an excellent man. However so far as he was involved, Tibetan Buddhism was all about satan worship, demon worship, and there’s no understanding in any respect on the a part of the Theravadan traditions or Theravadan those that I encountered that there was some precise Buddhism right here. And I keep in mind an trade between this gentleman, this monk, and my instructor, when he met my instructor, he mentioned, you realize, in Theravada custom, we’ve the–and he named a number of the 37 components of enlightenment. And my instructor went, “Oh, sure, we’ve these too,” after which named the subsequent set of the 37 components. And the Sri Lankan instructor checked out my instructor and mentioned, ‘, all these?” He was very shocked. And it’s comprehensible as a result of the traditions had been fully separated from one another geographically, so all they’d was their very own concepts about them. And so they didn’t actually know or perceive them deeply. 

So, right here I used to be, a Westerner who had two levels in arithmetic. And I used to be practising magic. Oh, that was fascinating. And it labored. There have been sufficient issues that occurred through the three-year retreat. One event, some acquaintances of mine had been concerned in a really, very severe automobile accident. And I didn’t know whether or not they had been alive, injured, or lifeless. And a bunch of us, as a result of we’re all from the identical place in Canada, at this level did an extended ritual. And that evening, I had a dream wherein one particular person was okay, one particular person was harm however can be okay, and one particular person, the third, her well being standing was questionable, however she was most likely going to be okay however she’d have a everlasting damage. A couple of days later, we acquired phrase that that was precisely what occurred. One particular person had survived a automobile accident with none damage. His spouse had sustained some damage, however not severe. And their daughter had sustained a really severe damage and had a lifelong incapacity. However that truly, very happily, has not prevented her from having a really full, fairly profitable life. Not a nasty ending to a doubtlessly tragic story. 

And there are a lot of different issues. I don’t declare any particular skills right here. It’s simply that these items occur, they usually pressure you to narrate to the world another way and open up your thoughts to different prospects.

MT: Yeah, you simply observed some very uncommon issues occurring, and the reason isn’t vital, proper? 

KM: Nicely, it’s really problematic, as a result of when you begin clinging to the stuff, it simply begins backfiring on you six methods to Sunday.

MT: Yeah, it will get massively tough immediately. So that you simply study to not fear about it. Yeah, that type of stuff occurs.

KM: That type of stuff occurs. And simply to provide you an instance, I used to be sitting with my instructor sooner or later, and he mentioned, “Ken, in keeping with Westerners, the place does rain come from?” And I mentioned, “Nicely, the solar shines on the ocean. And the solar evaporates, turns the water to water vapor, which rises up within the sky, turns into clouds; and when the clouds are dense sufficient, they type droplets, and rain falls.” And he checked out me–that is all in Tibetan, in fact–and he mentioned, “That’s not true in any respect. If that had been true, Los Angeles wouldn’t be a dry place.” So for him, the Western rationalization of rain was simply as magical as… 

So tradition brings us collectively, however it additionally limits us. And one of many aspects of observe that I believe is essential–I’m actually pondering of the 4 immeasurables right here: loving-kindness, compassion, pleasure, and equanimity. You observe these in a means that lets you see past your tradition. I believe that’s crucial.

MT: Sure. If you talked about in regards to the Sri Lankan instructor characterizing Vajrayana as satan worship, I presume that whether or not he knew it or not, he was speaking in regards to the protectors.

KM: Or the deities, as a result of most of the wrathful and semi-wrathful deities and you realize, I imply, principally, the semi-wrathful deities, they’re all vampires.

MT: Proper.

KM: Canine enamel bared, they usually drink blood. Seems like a vampire to me.

MT: Seems like a vampire. So let’s wade into the territory of the protectors.

KM: First off, I’ve a good friend who’s very deeply skilled within the Japanese Vajrayana custom, Shingon. And in that custom, there isn’t any distinction between deity and protector. And as my very own data and understanding of Vajrayana developed, I spotted that these three classes–guru, deity, and protector–there’s not a pointy line between them. For some folks, there are particular lecturers that operate very a lot as a yidam, and there are yidams that operate as lecturers, and there are yidams or deities that operate as protectors, and there’s protectors that operate as deities. Inexperienced Tara, for example, one of many many types of Tara, however Inexperienced Tara–nearly each monastery in Tibet does an invocation of Inexperienced Tara each morning. And the invocation is basically a protector observe, it’s not a deity observe, and she or he’s often called the protectress, then that’s what the 21 Taras is about.

However my instructor’s instructor who, after he accomplished his three-year retreat, was the monastery’s tailor, which was a giant job, as a result of there have been at all times banners and different decorations for the temple to be sewn or repaired or no matter. And after just a few years of these, he thought, you realize, this can be a waste of time, and he couldn’t get go away to depart the monastery. So he went into one of many latrines of the monastery and barred the door and stayed there for seven years. After every week or two, they began pushing meals underneath the door in order that he may eat. However he stayed there for seven years. And you may think about what a latrine in a Tibetan monastery was like, and he practiced Inexperienced Tara the entire time. In order that was his deity. 

And I discussed this since you type a private relationship. Your yidam, or deity, is your private deity. It’s who you flip to. And this can be a dwelling relationship. And Westerners coming from a practice the place these items simply didn’t exist or solely very rudimentary kinds, it’s going to take some time to develop that, however you really develop a private relationship. So the deity is that this determine who speaks to you, is in your coronary heart, and also you flip to, you pray to, etcetera. And that may be a protector or yidam, doesn’t actually matter. And I believe within the authentic tantras in India, just like the Hevajra tantra, the Cakrasaṃvara, Mahamaya, and so forth, they most likely operate each as deities and protectors; you flip to the identical deity for all the pieces. However as these items advanced, and this distinction developed over the centuries–that’s hypothesis on my half, however I believe that’s most likely what occurred.

MT: It’s definitely the case that in my Hindu Tantra observe, the principle deity features additionally as a protector deity. And in reality, a number of the most complicated lengthy practices I’ve executed are all, on the floor of them, protector practices, utilizing the deity as invocations of safety. And so after we would typically ask, Nicely, why are we spending a lot time on this safety stuff? The idea or the understanding turns into: It’s not that you simply’re making an attempt to keep away from getting hit by a bus, though that’s in there could also be on some stage; it’s far more about, in a easy means of claiming, like defending you from your self. And that’s the place it begins to show into the deity a part of it, the place it’s actually serving to you to work with your individual transformation.

KM: I believe that’s superb. And for the advantage of the listeners, I want to counsel that if you say defending you from your self, the your self is 2 phrases, your and self, you observe? 

MT: Sure. 

KM: And that’s definitely one of many features. The protector part, I don’t name it protector. I name it protectors and stability. Steadiness is essential in religious observe since you are growing skills and embarking into areas of human expertise the place it’s very straightforward to turn into imbalanced. And when you turn into imbalanced and aren’t in a position to maintain consideration, then your reactive tendencies simply get amplified, or there’s an incredible threat of that. They are often amplified by wrathful deities, they can be amplified by peaceable deities. And so the connection with–let’s say the protector side of observe–is essential when it comes to serving to to take care of stability. As a result of in these rituals, these lengthy and sometimes very complicated rituals, you’re invoking forces and features which you don’t usually discuss, you don’t even think about, and but a few of these deeper areas of our psyche–if you wish to use that Jungian time period–in which there’s an woke up realizing with which we could have very, little or no relationship with. And a method of forming a relationship is thru the efficiency of those rituals, which is why ritual is a vital a part of Vajrayana observe.

And folks within the West are sometimes distrustful and even antagonistic to ritual, however I discovered that these are extraordinarily refined and delicate and highly effective rituals. And though you can not say one plus one equals two, issues don’t add up fairly that means. There’s one thing that, by means of the observe of a ritual, forces tendencies, stuff moved extra into stability. And stability is the optimum situation from which to observe. In order that’s why, if you’re doing any type of, in-depth meditation you carry out–or most individuals carry out–a protector ritual every night. And we do Inexperienced Tara; on retreat, we do Inexperienced Tara within the morning and Mahakala within the night. And it is vitally, very clear that, in their very own means, they saved us sane, or helped to maintain us sane. As you mentioned, it’s not about stopping being run over by a bus. 

The act of prayer, which operates in all of those, you pray to your instructor, and deity observe, the deity rituals are crammed with prayers, some shorter and a few longer. And the rituals are constructed round a sure petitionary of prayers. You’re not likely asking for issues, or issues on this planet. The facility of prayer comes as a result of, by means of prayer, you give expression to your deepest aspirations, your religious aspirations. You say, That is the place I wish to go, that is what I need, and I need assistance. So two issues are occurring–at the very least two issues are occurring in prayer. One is that you’re permitting your self to formulate these items, which you realize, the small voice inside, you’re really permitting it to take expression; you need this reference to the world, a means of experiencing that isn’t mediated by the conceptual thoughts. There’s an immediacy to expertise that we by no means know, so long as we’re deciphering what we expertise as bushes, or automobiles, or highway, or homes, or folks, and so forth. And the opposite is that we’re expressing our willingness to step into what we don’t know, by means of the observe of prayer, what we don’t know, what we haven’t skilled, that may be a bit of horrifying. And ritual provides us a means of doing that. These sorts of issues we’re bringing to the fore. What’s so deeply held in our hearts and in our beings that we’re afraid, typically to provide any voice or any type of expression to it? That’s actually vital. That’s actually vital, I believe. This is smart to you, Michael?

MT: Deeply. The act of repeatedly, or let’s say, typically citing your coronary heart’s want or your deepest intention for what you’re doing is, with spirituality, why you’re even there in any respect, is essential. And the truth that these rituals assist to not solely remind you to say it, or provide help to to repeat it, however offer you a framework inside which to essentially refine it and actually deeply discover it’s extremely vital. And a part of the expansion, proper?

KM: Sure, it’s like these components of us haven’t had a lot alternative to develop. And in doing these rituals, I believe it’s crucial to know what you’re saying, and also you really give expression to it. It’s a bit of intimidating. Perhaps it’s a bit of greater than a bit of intimidating. As a result of dare I want this? 

MT: Yeah. 

KM: What’s going to occur to me, if I let myself really feel this? And once more, there’s the intrusion of the self, this concept that ultimately we stand aside from the world that we expertise,

MT: What’s going to occur if I get my want?

KM: Nicely, your life’s going to alter. That’s all.

MT:  Timewise, we should always finish this right here. However would you be prepared to do type of half two of this interview someday quickly so we will proceed with this fascinating dialog?

KM: Nicely, I’m very grateful to you, Michael, for this chance. I converse extra simply than I write. And as we’ve been having this dialog, it’s a bit of unusual for me to listen to myself talking a bit of bit extra passionately than I’m susceptible to ordinarily. And so I believe I’d very very similar to to proceed this. So thanks for the chance.

MT: In fact, thanks and I deeply recognize you taking the time once more. So till quickly.

KM: Superb. Sit up for listening to from you.

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